Tom Schreiner on Paul, the Apostolic Missionary in Acts (Season 2, Episode 8)

This article is part of the Conversations on the Bible with Nancy Guthrie series.

An Introduction to Paul

Join Nancy Guthrie as she talks with Pauline scholar and author Thomas Schreiner about the person and work of Paul, particularly his theological foundations, his work as a missionary, and the many problems he faced.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

• What Fueled Paul’s Murderous Hatred of Christ Followers?
• Paul’s Conversion and the Church’s Hesitation
• To the Jew First, and Also to the Greek
• A Timeline of Paul’s Ministry
• How Many Apostles Were There?
• The Importance of the Jerusalem Council
• Understanding Acts alongside Paul’s Epistles
• The Zenith of Paul’s Mission

00:35 - What Fueled Paul’s Murderous Hatred of Christ Followers?

Nancy Guthrie
Welcome to season two of Conversations on the Bible with Nancy Guthrie. I’m Nancy Guthrie, author of Saved: Experiencing the Promise of the Book of Acts. In the book of Acts, we see the enthroned Lord Jesus at work by his Spirit through his apostles. They are taking the message that salvation is available to all who will call upon the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. And it is accomplishing its intended purpose: people are being saved. On this podcast I’m having conversations with people who can help us to see more clearly the ways in which we see God working out his salvation purposes in the world, particularly in the pages of the book of Acts. And my guest today is Dr. Thomas Schreiner. Dr. Schreiner, thank you for being willing to sit down and talk.

Thomas Schreiner
It’s my pleasure, Nancy. Looking forward to it.

Nancy Guthrie
If you don’t know Dr. Schreiner, he is the James Buchanan Harrison professor of New Testament Interpretation and Associate Dean of the School of Theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And Dr. Schreiner is a Pauline scholar. He has written many fine books and commentaries. I don’t imagine you’ve kept count.

Thomas Schreiner
I haven’t.

Nancy Guthrie
Okay. I’m the same way. But the reason I wanted to talk to him for this podcast is a book he wrote called Paul, Apostle of God’s Glory in Christ: A Pauline Theology. Now, we don’t have time to cover it’s 500 pages worth of insights, but I am hoping to mine Dr. Schreiner’s significant knowledge of the person and work and writing and theology of Paul, particularly because the book of Acts is where we meet Paul and we get to witness all of his missionary journeys. And so I am hoping that we’ll gain some insight from him about Paul’s conversion and his call, his burden, his theological foundations, his priorities, his passion, and also the problems he faced. So let’s dive in. The first time we meet Paul in the book of Acts is when we read that he’s holding everyone’s cloaks while they stone Stephen. It says specifically that he approved of his execution. Now, here’s what you write in your book, Dr. Schreiner. You say, “Paul saw himself following in the footsteps of Phineas, who demonstrated his zeal for God by killing the Israelite man and Moabite woman who cohabited in blatant regard of the Torah.” So that’s from Numbers 25. So you’re saying Paul sees himself in light of that old Testament character. He was like Elijah who killed 400 prophets of Baal, and like Mattathias the Hasmonean who showed his zeal by slaying the man who would compromise by offering a sacrifice to a foreign god, which is in 1 Maccabees. So Paul sees himself in light of these historical characters. We know about Elijah, but maybe those other two are less familiar to us. So will you just talk to us a little bit about what drove Paul’s murderous hatred of those who followed Christ?

Thomas Schreiner
What I think is interesting is when we think of those stories, we think a murder—somebody’s angry and they’re murdering someone. But that’s not what was in Paul’s mind. Paul’s mind was, “These people are heretics.” Under the old covenant, heretics are to be put to death, just as Phineas put to death the couple that was cohabiting. And we often forget in the story of Elijah that it ended with the slaying of those 400 prophets of Baal, and that was pleasing to the Lord. Elijah wasn’t sinning, Phineas wasn’t sinning, and I think Mattathias (that’s not in Scripture) was viewed in the same way by Pau, that you’re pleasing the Lord. Often people think, “Oh, Paul had this guilty conscience.” But instead, I think when Paul was persecuting the Christians and agreeing with Stephen’s death, and we see indications of this in Galatians and Philippians 3, he felt good about it. I always say to my students that after Stephen was put to death, Paul went home and had a good dinner, and he enjoyed himself. I think he thought, “I’ve done God’s will today.”

Nancy Guthrie
Isn’t that what Jesus said would happen? He told his disciples, “There’s going to be those who want to kill you, and they’ll think that they’re serving God in doing so.”

Thomas Schreiner
Exactly. I think that’s exactly what Paul was thinking.

Nancy Guthrie
And Paul’s defense of what he understands to be the faith is not ill-informed. Paul has spent a lifetime studying the old Testament.

Thomas Schreiner
Yes, exactly. Paul knew these scriptural stories. And of course we read over and over again in the old Testament that heretics are to be put to death. They are to be expelled from the community. And that is one reason we need to have a good understanding of the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. In the old covenant that was right to put heretics to death. In the new Covenant, heretics aren’t put to death; they’re removed from the church. Actually, in 1 Corinthians 5 Paul uses that very language of the person committing incest. He picks up the language from the Old Testament where people are put to death, and he doesn’t apply it to death; he says remove him from the community. But of course Paul wasn’t a Christian, so he didn’t understand the covenantal difference. He didn’t understand Jesus was the Messiah. So he thought he was a good Torah-observing Jew.

06:31 - Paul’s Conversion and the Church’s Hesitation

Nancy Guthrie
And was pleasing the Sanhedrin back in Jerusalem, leading that with so much zeal. Then we come to Acts 9, and we read about the conversion of Paul. Up to that point, he’s been blind to be able to see the way in which Christ actually has fulfilled all that the Old Testament has taught. He’s blinded again, but then his eyes are open. But actually in Acts we read about what happened on the road to Damascus three times. They are slightly different accounts. But as someone who is a Pauline scholar and has put so much into studying Paul, what are the things that stand out most to you in the three times he tells us about his conversion in the book of Acts? What’s significant?

Thomas Schreiner
I think the first thing we should say, just picking up from our last question, is as Paul is heading to Damascus, he doesn’t have a guilty conscience. He thinks he’s pleasing God. He’s happy, I think, with what he’s doing. So the first thing that strikes us in this story is this is all of God. There’s no preparation on Paul’s part. Whether he is on a camel or a horse or whatever, he’s struck down. When he says, “Who are you, Lord?”—what a significant moment! How shocked Paul had to be when he heard the words, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.” Because I think Paul thought, from Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy 21:23, that because Jesus was crucified on the cross, he can’t be the Messiah. He’s cursed of God. So to hear, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” we’ll have to all talk about it with Paul someday because that had to have utterly shocked him.

Nancy Guthrie
It’s the worst news he’s ever heard, in many ways. This thing you have set yourself against and you’re investing the whole of who you are to fight against Jesus being recognized as the Messiah, and in that moment he finds out he’s been wrong his whole life.

Thomas Schreiner
We see it in Galatians 1, we see it in Philippians 3, we see it in 1 Timothy 1—Paul never forgot that he was a persecutor of the church. He knew he was forgiven, but he never forgot that he was utterly opposed to the things of God.

Nancy Guthrie
I just think about the realities of being a person who has that history. I’m surprised we don’t read anymore than what we read in Acts 9 about the church’s hesitation about accepting Paul, getting over the fact that he had been a persecutor, thinking about there being people maybe who knew and loved Stephen or knew and loved other people he hauled off to prison who were maybe put to death. For people to accept that Christ had changed him, and if Christ had forgiven him, then they were called to do that. But also grace on his side to not live forever in the guilt and shame of that. Will you talk about that a little bit?

Thomas Schreiner
I think one of the things that we see is Luke’s narrative, even though it’s twenty-eight chapters and even though Luke wrote twenty-eight percent of the New Testament when you include the Gospel, it’s very compact. We have hints, but I think it’s certainly there. We have hints in Acts 9, when he is first converted in Damascus, that people, well, Ananias hesitates. God has to directly tell him, “Go. It’s going to be okay.” And then the church, even the Jews, are like, “Come on. Is he faking?” And then when Barnabas brings him to Jerusalem, the apostles are not convinced. “Is he really converted?” So I think there are stories there that maybe we fill in with our own minds. One of the more interesting things is in Acts 21 when Paul comes back, he stays with Philip, one of the seven. Presumably, Philip and Stephen were good friends. His friend was put to death by, at least in agreement, by Paul. So they had to have talked about it. Philip, amazingly, obviously forgave him and loved him. And Paul, of course, knew the gospel so well, that we really are forgiven. Our sins are wiped away as far as the East is from the West.

Nancy Guthrie
Perhaps he’s an example to us of what it looks like to saturate yourself in those gospel truths so that they not only change how you think but how you feel, how you see yourself, and that you can really live according to the grace you’ve received.

Thomas Schreiner
Yeah. We think of Paul himself perhaps meditating on “there’s therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.”

Nancy Guthrie
Did he write that and marinate on it himself?

Thomas Schreiner
I think so. That’s why it’s so powerful. I think these truths gripped Paul.

Nancy Guthrie
Alright, let’s go back to the road to Damascus. He’s discovered that this person he’s persecuting is the risen, exalted Lord Jesus. What else from that experience there and then on in Damascus is significant for us to remember?

Thomas Schreiner
Luke tells the story three times. That in itself is interesting. Again, in a very compact narrative. If you tell a story three times, it’s of extreme importance. So I think from the perspective of Acts, why is there such a focus on Paul? When we think of Acts, Peter and Paul are the only two apostles who talk. No one else says a word. So “The Acts of the Apostles” is kind of an interesting name, isn’t it? But why such a focus on Paul, not one of the original twelve? And I think it’s because Paul had that unique calling on the Damascus road to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. Peter did that, some of the other apostles did it, but Paul had a unique calling to bring the gospel to the Gentiles and to explicate theologically how that worked with the Jewish Scriptures. He wrote thirteen of the twenty-seven books in the New Testament, amazingly enough. We’re so used to it, but we stand back and think, “This guy wasn’t even one of the original twelve, and he wrote virtually half the New Testament.” But I think it’s actually his theological training. Of all the twelve, here’s the person who has marinated in the Scriptures from the beginning. So I think Paul thought, “I’m the perfect apostle to the Jews. I know the Scriptures, I’m a rabbi.” But God says, “No, you’re the perfect apostle for the Gentiles because you can unpack the gospel scripturally. I’ve prepared you your whole life for this.”

13:51 - To the Jew First, and Also to the Greek

Nancy Guthrie
But it is interesting, as we continue through the book of Acts, everywhere he goes, he goes first to the synagogue; he goes first to the Jews. It’s interesting to observe in Acts the different ways he presents Christ. It’s very different when he goes to the synagogue and interacts with Jews. He works from their Old Testament promises and prophecies and categories, presenting Jesus as the fulfillment of the Son of David and his kingdom as the fulfillment of all the kingdom promises. It’s like he has the Old Testament scrolls open when he goes to the Jews. But when he goes to Gentiles who have no old Testament understanding, he speaks very differently. He speaks from nature—something that they know, you know, that general revelation. Wherever they go throughout their ministry, whether it’s Paul and Barnabas Paul or later with Paul and Silas, they always begin with the Jews. Even in these Gentile cities they go to the Jews first. What do you think we’re meant to understand about that?

Thomas Schreiner
We see it in Romans. Again and again, Paul says “to the Jew first and also to the Greek,” because the Jews are God’s covenant people. They were elected by God to be God’s covenant people. So Jesus himself says this. “I was sent,” Jesus says, “to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” He doesn’t exclude the Gentiles, but Jesus’s primary focus throughout his entire ministry is to the chosen people. Jesus is the son of David. He fulfills the covenant with David so that that gospel goes first to the Jews. And we see this very much in Romans. We think of Romans 9–11, which there are some contested things in there, but I think that, among other things, Paul’s saying God will fulfill his promises to the Jewish people—however we understand that. We don’t have to get into that. That drove Paul, and we see in Romans 9–11 that he has a deep love for the Jews, even those who are lost. Not only a love, but an ache and pain and anguish in his heart. He goes to the Jews first, and yet his primary ministry is to the Gentiles.

16:08 - A Timeline of Paul’s Ministry

Nancy Guthrie
As I worked through the book of Acts, one thing that I really needed to get a sense of was to have a timeline in my mind of when things were happening. I needed to try to figure out how many years were between certain things. And so let’s talk about the timeline here. Would you give us a brief timeline of Paul’s ministry? Because some of that we see in Acts, but some of it we actually need to go elsewhere in the Bible to understand the timeline. Would you give us a sense on that?

Thomas Schreiner
Yeah, and obviously, it’s just approximate. We don’t know exact dates, but let’s just say Paul was converted pretty quickly after Jesus’s ministry. Let’s say 33 AD or so. And then he spends two or three years in Damascus. Then he comes to Jerusalem, and then he goes back home to Syria and Cilicia (modern-day Turkey)—the Tarsus area for basically ten years (45–46 AD). So then—

Nancy Guthrie
Can I just stop you? We don’t necessarily know a lot about what’s happening there, right? Do we have any indication?

Thomas Schreiner
No, not really. Not really. I think he was preaching the gospel. And one thing I’d want to say is, isn't it interesting that Paul had a number of years to minister and preach before he wrote any letters? By the time Paul’s writing letters, he’s an experienced missionary and apostle. So God calls him, but he’s not writing immediately. So just like us, he’s maturing and thinking through things.

Nancy Guthrie
Just think of all of the implications. He had that basis of Old Testament history, but he had to work through the Old Testament to really connect it to the person and work of Christ.

Thomas Schreiner
Yeah. And I think Paul was ministering, but he’s also studying and reflecting on all these things. So then about 45–46 AD, Barnabas, who’s in Syrian Antioch (modern-day Syria), he goes and fetches Paul and brings him and they minister for about a year there. And then (Acts 13 and 14) Paul and Barnabas go on their first missionary journey to these cities that are in modern-day Turkey that are described in those chapters. So that’s like 46–47. And then in 48 AD (Acts 15) you have the apostolic council. They decide whether or not circumcision is going to be required for salvation.

Nancy Guthrie
So he’s in Antioch, and this is becoming an issue because some people from Jerusalem—a remnant—have come up and said, “Okay, these Gentiles, they’re gonna need to become Jews first.” And so Paul says, “Okay, well we need to go down to Jerusalem and have a big powwow with the apostles and the leaders of the Jewish church in Jerusalem.”

Thomas Schreiner
Absolutely. Such an important meeting in the history of the church. Then, you know the story. Paul and Barnabas kind of split ways over John Mark.

Nancy Guthrie
They’re back up in Antioch at that point.

Thomas Schreiner
Right. And Paul goes on a second missionary journey with Silas. In maybe 49–52 AD he revisits the cities, and that’s when he goes to Philippi and Thessalonica and Athens and Corinth. Then, it’s very, very quick. That’s Acts 15 through maybe Acts 18:22 (somewhere in there). Luke tells the story so fast, but then there’s a third journey. It’s really easy to miss when you’re reading your Bible, because Luke says it in one or two verses—“and off he is again.” But that’s maybe from Acts 18 through the end of Acts 21, but it’s like 53–57 AD.

Nancy Guthrie
He goes to revisit a lot of those churches in Macedonia and then Ephesus.

Thomas Schreiner
Yeah, Ephesus is the emphasis in that section, then the journey home, and then in about Acts 20 and 21 and so forth, that’s when Paul gets arrested. He’s imprisoned in Caesarea for two years—something like 57–59 AD. Then he makes that journey to Rome. We read about that in Acts 27 and 28, that famous shipwreck. And he gets to Rome, and of course Luke doesn’t tell us what happened, ut I believe what happened, and I think it’s the majority view, is that Paul was released in that imprisonment, and he was out for a couple years (2, 3, or 4 years; it’s hard to know). He was rearrested, and then 2 Timothy, he’s put to death around 64 or 65 AD.

Nancy Guthrie
So not too long after that.

Thomas Schreiner
Right.

Nancy Guthrie
So God had promised him, “You must testify to me in Rome.” We don’t have a biblical record of that. Do we have an extra-biblical record that that actually took place?

Thomas Schreiner
The only thing we have is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4, but he doesn’t tell us specifically what happened. He just says, “Everybody abandoned me,” and so forth and so on.

Nancy Guthrie
“I was left alone.”

Thomas Schreiner
Was Caesar actually there? He doesn’t even tell us that for sure, but I think he did testify before Caesar at the time, which would’ve been Nero.

Nancy Guthrie
When he is first arrested in Jerusalem and taken to Caesarea, the Jews come and they kind of reiterate their charges against him. They say that he has committed a crime against Caesar. So I make the assumption, correct me if I’m wrong, that they’re saying, “You’ve done some kind of treason. Perhaps your proclamation of this kingdom of Jesus is somehow treasonous against Caesar.” But because we don’t have a lot of records, we don’t really know how he was judged in that regard. We believe he was put to death. Is there a connection between those charges and him being put to death eventually? Or do we just not know?

Thomas Schreiner
It’s really hard to say, but what is interesting is I think you’re right. It’s the same strategy they use with Jesus. Jesus is a king, he is treasonous. Of course, they’re not saying Paul’s a king, but Paul’s preaching a king. It’s causing a lot of social unrest. And of course, if you’re reading about Jewish history at this time, there is a lot of unrest politically and socially and there’s violence going on. But what’s fascinating about the story in Acts is Luke emphasizes again and again that actually all the Roman governing officials—Felix and Festus, and then when Agrippa comes in—they’re all like, “There’s nothing to these charges.” It’s almost humorous when Festus sends him to Rome and he says to Agrippa, “Hey, we’ve got to send him to Rome, but I don’t have any charges.”

Nancy Guthrie
“Can you help me come up with something?”

Thomas Schreiner
Yeah. And I think Luke’s telling the readers, “Look, just like Jesus, Paul’s innocent. He’s not a political revolutionary. He’s not an agitator.” But we don’t know the second time he’s arrested what was being said exactly. How does it fit with the fire in Rome and then Caesar conveniently blamed the Christians for what was happening? Although the rumor was that Nero set the fire himself. So perhaps it was during that time, and probably it was something like that—“He’s an agitator, he is causing problems and violence and so forth and so on.” We do know from Acts 18 that in Rome that the Jews and the Christians were fighting in the city, and Claudius expelled all the Jews. So the Romans viewed the Jewish people as a very annoying and recalcitrant people.

Nancy Guthrie
Troublemakers.

Thomas Schreiner
They’re always causing trouble.

23:55 - How Many Apostles Were There?

Nancy Guthrie
That was one thing I learned in this study of Acts. I feel like I have a lot more to learn about the nature of the Roman empire that the gospel was being taken into. Their Pax Romana, their desire for peace, that a lot of the problems, as you mentioned were, these Jews and the Jewish Christians—“They’ve got conflicts, so let’s just get rid of them all and preserve the peace.” So at the very beginning of Acts, Judas has died and they want to replace Judas so that there are twelve disciples. And it certainly seems to me, when I read that passage, that there is a great significance to there being twelve apostles leading this new covenant community just as there had been twelve patriarchs leading the old covenant community. So that seems to be what’s really important there, that there’s these twelve apostles. But then we come to Paul’s conversion and him being named an apostle. In my logical mind, that messes up the numbers. So maybe I’m not totally understanding this. Why was it important for Paul to be appointed as an apostle, and how would you say he fits in with the twelve?

Thomas Schreiner
First, I think you’re exactly right. In Acts 1, before Jesus meets with the apostles after his resurrection, he promises them that the Spirit’s going to come. What has to happen before the Spirit comes? Well, Jesus has to ascend. He reigns at the right hand of God. He is the one reigning at the right hand of God. The Spirit is poured out. And it’s very important that the twelfth apostle is chosen. Peter says, “This is what Scripture says.” So there’s no notion there that they’re making a mistake. Scripture is being fulfilled. I think you’re exactly right that the number twelve there is important literally but also symbolically. We have the new nucleus of the people of God. It’s no longer focused on the twelve tribes of Israel; Now it’s the twelve leaders of the new people of God. I would say the fulfilled Israel. Not a replacement, but a fulfillment of what Israel is. So that number becomes very important, but it’s complicated. Paul’s an apostle, but Barnabas is also called an apostle in Acts 14. And in Galatians 1:19, it mentions James, the half-brother of Jesus. I think the most natural way to read it is that he's called an apostle. So we don’t just have thirteen, we have fourteen or maybe fifteen. Maybe Silas was an apostle. So it’s hard to know how many there were. But I think that number twelve is originally important, but in 1 Corinthians 15, he says Jesus appeared to the twelve and to all the apostles. So there is a little distinction there.

Nancy Guthrie
So there’s apostles and there’s apostles. Is that what you’re saying?

Thomas Schreiner
Yes, but they all have equal authority. Paul is equally an apostle, as he makes very clear, with the twelve. And if we think about this theologically, when James is put to death, James the brother of John (not James the half-brother of Jesus, but James the brother of John, one of the three that was closest to Jesus) is put to death, he’s not replaced. They’re not replacing apostles. There’s an original group of this technical group of fifteen or sixteen, but that’s it. And as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, “I’m like a miscarriage. I’m born out of time. I’m the weird apostle, so to speak.” And again, we see Paul’s unique calling. So it’s a little bit messy. I think the twelve number is important, but at the end of the day, there’s a few more.

Nancy Guthrie
So it sounds like we shouldn’t get too hung up on that. We’re right to understand it as this new covenant, or you said this fulfillment of Israel, here at the very beginning as the Spirit comes. But then after that they’re not going to be replaced, and we can be comfortable with there being additional apostles. So it seems in Acts that a requirement to be called an apostle is that you’ve seen the risen Lord Jesus. Would you say that’s true? And if so, how do we then deal with some of these others?

Thomas Schreiner
Yes. I would say with Silas, we don’t know for sure. If he was an apostle, I think Jesus appeared to him. And the same with Barnabas. We know Jesus appeared to James the half-brother of Jesus because Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15. So yes, I take it that’s a requirement to be an apostle. One other thing I want to say is we ought not to say the apostles we don’t hear about didn’t have a significant ministry. Acts, again, is very limited. We learn nothing about the ministry of Thomas or Philip the apostle. Because the Philip in Acts is Philip one of the seven. And that doesn’t mean they didn’t have a significant ministry. Luke tells us only a very small part of the story. Eckhard Schnabel, a famous New Testament scholar who teaches at Gordon Conwell, he’s written an article that argues that Thomas actually made it to India. That tradition is true. And I found that convincing. So there are all kinds of stories. We don’t know what happened with all these guys.

29:27 - The Importance of the Jerusalem Council

Nancy Guthrie
Luke is a selective writer writing with a purpose, talking about the fulfillment, I would say, of Acts 1:8, of the gospel going up from Jerusalem, to Judea and Samaria, and then to the ends of the earth. Paul plays a key role in the decision made by that Jerusalem council about whether or not Gentiles are going to be expected to become Jews first before being Christians. And then later when he returns to Jerusalem after he has been starting churches around Macedonia and Asia, he’s accused of teaching the Jews in those Gentile cities “to forsake Moses,” or to no longer live according to Jewish customs. And so to understand this part of Acts, we have to understand what was happening in this time period between the cross, resurrection, and ascension. And maybe you would say the time period goes maybe until the temple was destroyed. But it seems there’s a transition going on, especially for these Jewish believers to be transitioning out of Judaism to what we would call today Christianity. So that seems to be a challenging thing to them in the story that Acts tells. And I think it’s challenging to us as modern readers to try to understand what was still required of them. When they’re still doing some of these Jewish customs, is it because there’s something deficient in their faith in Christ? Or is this just a very unique time in history? So can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Thomas Schreiner
Let’s start with the Jerusalem Council. Circumcision is the huge issue. Is circumcision required for salvation? Under the old covenant, to be part of the people of God you had to be circumcised. So Paul and Barnabas come down and they’re saying no. And very significantly, Peter agrees. That’s very important. But then James, the half-brother of Jesus, James is the most conservative. James’s whole ministry is in Jerusalem. So if anybody disagrees, it’s going to be James. Paul’s going to the Gentiles, Peter’s kind of doing both, and James—he was killed in 62 AD, stoned in Jerusalem—so his whole life is among the Jews. But James stands up and says, “Peter’s right. Paul’s right. Circumcision is not required for salvation.” That’s the huge issue. But then there’s another question for the Jews. Are you required to abandon the customs and laws with which you grew up?

Nancy Guthrie
Which would be what kinds of things?

Thomas Schreiner
Like the food laws, especially, and the purity laws, and maybe observing the festivals. And we even see in Acts that Paul comes back and has a Nazarite vow, which includes offering sacrifices in the temple. So what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9 is really important, isn’t it? When he is with the Jews, he lives as a Jew. When he is with a Gentile, he lives as a Gentile. Now, that’s kind of tricky because you could say to a person, “You’re a hypocrite. You change depending on whoever you’re with.” But Paul’s saying, “I live for the sake of the gospel. We’re not required any longer, even as Jews, we’re not required to observe the law. So when I’m with the Gentiles, I adjust and maybe I have a ham sandwich when I’m with them. But when I’m with the Jews, I follow my ancestral customs.” So it’s complicated. If you live in a Jewish culture, you’re probably going to keep following those customs. Everybody around you is doing that. But if you’re living with the Gentiles, there’s a little more freedom. And we see in Romans 14 and 15 that it’s tough. There’s this whole debate on the weak and the strong. I think Paul makes it pretty clear: “The stronger are right. You don’t have to keep the law. But at the same time,” he says, “be sensitive to these people who disagree.” So it’s actually a really complicated matter. But he’d say that at the end of the day, no, you don’t have to keep the law. But there are cultural situations in which it’s advisable. And if you as a Jew want to do it, that is do the festivals and that sort of thing, that’s fine. As long as you don’t say it’s required for salvation and as long as you don’t say other people need to do it, even other Jews, I think Paul would resist that. And I think today the Messianic Jewish movement goes too far in emphasizing this because—

Nancy Guthrie
Emphasizing what?

Thomas Schreiner
That it’s more pleasing to God for Jews to continue to observe the law. I don’t think it’s banned for them, but I think in some situations at least, it almost becomes that’s what you should do. And I don’t think that’s what Paul’s saying. I think Paul’s saying you’re free from the law now. And I think those communities can begin to suggest, and maybe it gets even stronger than that, that that’s what it really means to be a good Christian.

Nancy Guthrie
So if you and I were new believers in the first century, and maybe we know about what Paul has been accused of when he gets back to Jerusalem and they’re saying, “Okay, we’ve heard you’re opposing Moses and you’re telling people they don’t have to follow any kind of Jewish customs.” And so Paul says, “Okay, yeah, I’ll offer the sacrifice for a Nazarite vow.” And it seems he’s done one himself recently. And so we’re there at the temple and he’s offered some sacrifices, and we’re standing there and we’re a little bit confused because we think, “This is the Paul who has been saying that Jesus Christ, in his offering of himself, was a once-for-all a sacrifice.” That’s what the writer of Hebrews says. And so we walk up to him and we say, “Paul, what’s going on here?” Do you think we could expect Paul to say something like, “You no longer have to offer an animal sacrifice because Jesus was the once-for-all perfect sacrifice.” Now, maybe he wouldn’t have been able to say there’s a day coming in just a few years when nobody’s going to be offering sacrifices because the temple’s going to be destroyed. But maybe would he be saying, “You are free to do so, and you would be seeing that sacrifice the same way that they should have been understood throughout the whole of the Old Testament, that they are pointers to that once-and-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ”? Would he say something like that?

Thomas Schreiner
Yes, I think he would. At least Old Testament saints, did they understand it was a pointer? At least they understood God’s providing forgiveness. And clearly by the time the Messiah has come, you’ve got to understand that, that they point to something else. And I think it’s analogous to the story that we find in Matthew 17, where Peter is asked by some people, “Does your master pay the temple tax?” In Exodus 30 it says that’s required. But of course the temple is going away. Jesus has predicted the temple is going to be destroyed. The temple is a temporary thing. The temple points, finally, to Christ, who’s the new temple. But it’s so interesting because Jesus says to Peter, “The sons are free from that tax. We don’t have to pay that tax. But we’ll do it so that we don’t offend them.” So I think it’s very similar. We don’t have to do this. We don’t have to pay that tax, but they won’t understand. It’ll be offensive. We’re happy to keep this law, but it points to something greater. Of course, Jesus can be quite as clear as Paul could after the cross and resurrection. Peter doesn’t even understand what’s coming. But yeah, so I think that’s right. At the end of the day, I think Paul would say, “There’s no atonement in these. I’m living as a Jew with the Jews.” And maybe Paul would’ve even said, “Jesus predicted the temple would be destroyed in a generation. Yeah, this is coming down. We know this is a temporary thing.” Of course, Luke doesn’t tell us that, so maybe he didn’t say that.

37:56 - Understanding Acts alongside Paul’s Epistles

Nancy Guthrie
Dr. Schreiner, one thing that happened to me as I’ve been studying Acts is that it has changed what jumps out to me when I read various epistles that Paul has written. Now, when I read the book of Philippians, it’s like I can almost picture that group in Philippi meeting at Lydia’s house, and I feel like I see some faces in that crowd that he’s writing to that I recognize. Or when I read Paul’s instructions at the end of the book of Colossians where he mentions people who have been with him on his way to Rome and then under house arrest with him there, I know what those people have been through with Paul to be there in Rome with him. So how does what Paul writes in his letters to various churches he visited that we read about in Acts, how does that help us as we study Acts? And then how does Acts help us to understand what we read in later epistles that he writes?

Thomas Schreiner
We could talk about that a long time. I just think of some examples. I’m always struck in reading 1 Thessalonians 2 where he says, “We had the boldness in our God after suffering previously to preach the gospel to you.” Well, we know from Acts 16 that he has just come from Philippi where he and Silas were beaten with rods—that could kill you!—and that Paul would go to the next city and preach the gospel. A long time ago I watched a movie, Peter and Paul, maybe some of you saw it. It’s an old movie where Anthony Hopkins plays Paul. And I remember Silas, as they’re walking, Silas says something like, “Can we maybe pull it back in the next city? Our backs are super sore.” When we read 1 Thessalonians, because of Acts we know what happened. Or I think of Acts 19. In Ephesus they burn all those magic books. And then in Ephesians, there’s such an emphasis on those spiritual powers and demonic forces, and we can connect that with Acts 19. Clint Arnold has done this, if some of you have read his books, the magic and the focus on spiritual forces and demons, and what’s happening in Ephesus as well, and maybe even through governing authorities. Or in Corinth, he tells us what happened before Galeo, the proconsul, who is the brother of Seneca, by the way, interestingly, and how God promised Paul, “Look, you have many disciples in this city.” And Galeo says to the Jews, “I don’t care about what you Jews are squabbling about.” And it leaves Paul free to continue to proclaim the gospel in Corinth. So yeah, we have so many parallels like that that are fascinating.

40:49 - The Zenith of Paul’s Mission

Nancy Guthrie
Finally, you write, “The ultimate goal of Paul’s mission was to see God glorified, and this reaches its zenith when Jews and Gentiles together worship and praise God.” I think one thing that I just had not fully understood about the book of Acts until I studied it in writing this book, Saved, was how central the gospel going out to Gentiles is. I suppose that should have been obvious to me, but what a huge leap that was for those believers in Jerusalem, and how significant the things that take place in the book of Acts are not only to the people of that day but maybe I wouldn’t know the gospel if the gospel had been hindered from going to Gentiles. So talk to us a little bit about Paul’s mission reaching its zenith when Jews and Gentiles, together, worship and praise God.

Thomas Schreiner
I think we begin by going back to the promise of Abraham. That’s the covenant, right? The covenant is, finally, that all nations are going to be blessed through Abraham. And there is a focus on the Jews in the Old Testament, but as we continue to read in the Psalms and then the prophets, there’s that universal emphasis. That covenant with Abraham, that Davidic king that’s coming, is not going to just bless Israel; he’s going to bless the whole world. Now, I think the Jews believe that, but the way it happened I think shocked them, because as we know, many of the Jews did not believe. They said, “This can’t be our king! Jesus of Nazareth, he’s not the king.” But of course, he was the king. So we see Paul working this out, especially in Ephesians and Romans, Galatians, It’s in all his letters, but his two most theological letters are really Romans and Ephesians, and we see he just marvels at the fact that the mystery that’s been revealed is Jews and Gentiles are one body in Christ. Finally, the Jews aren’t better than the Gentiles, but they’re one people. That’s why I like to say the church is the fulfillment of the promises to Israel. Now Jew and Gentile are together. And that is just so beautiful because God’s purpose from the beginning was to bring the gospel to the whole world. And we can say 2,000 years later that there’s always more to do, but it’s happened. It’s remarkable! And I think you’re exactly right. If in Acts 15 they had decided circumcision is required for salvation, I don’t think me and you would be saved. So these are crucial decisions that we see in Acts as the gospel is going out. And at the end of the day (I’ve been influenced by John Piper and probably all of us have) mission is for the purpose of worship. At the end of the day, what is mission for? Not just to include people in the people of God. Yes, but it’s so that we enjoy and love God and we glorify him when we love him. And that’s true in marriage, isn’t it? We honor our spouse by loving our spouse. And so God’s honored when we love him and when we depend on him and rely on him and are nurtured by him and strengthened by him and filled with him. So that’s Ephesians, right? He prays in Ephesians 3 that we’d be filled with all the fullness of God—that’s Jews and Gentiles together. And what does that mean? It means to be filled with his love. That’s what it means to be filled with the fullness of God. And that glorifies him.

Nancy Guthrie
Well, the book of Acts, for me, has made me cherish more fully, see more clearly the outworking of God’s plan to save a people for himself. And certainly, the book of Acts seems to really put the emphasis on the fact that this people is going to be a people made up of Jew and Gentile people. The way John will put it in Revelation, “from every tribe, tongue, and nation.” That’s the ultimate fulfillment of what begins in the book of Acts. Dr. Schreiner, thank you so much for lending to all of us your knowledge of the person of Paul and his theology and his history. It was so helpful to us. Thank you.

Thomas Schreiner
It was my pleasure.

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