SPEAKERS: Julie Roys, Lance Ford, Tony Evans

Note: This is a rough transcript and may contain some misspellings.

Julie: In June 2024, pastor Tony Evans stepped down from the church he founded for Undisclosed Sin. Now, the church says he’s been restored that we won’t return to pastor at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship Church. But he will return to public ministry.

OCBF Elder – Christopher Wheel: We are pleased to report that Dr. Evans has fully submitted to the church’s discipline and restoration process.

Julie: The announcement was met with celebration and applause, but we still don’t know what Tony Evans did. In fact, in an interview with Religion News Service, he referred to his sin as consternation. Then when pressed, he referred to it as quote. Personal matters that he’s not free to go into. He is back. Dr. Den on Moody Radio’s, Chris Faber Live.

Evans referred to it as something else. It was bitter because there was some negative circumstances around it. So what is the public to make of Evan’s vague reference to sin and then to restoration? And is it biblical or is it public relations? I’ll discuss with author and Pastor Lance Ford. Welcome to the Royce Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church.

I’m Julie Roys.

Well, joining me now is a frequent guest here at the Roy’s Report, Lance Ford. He’s an author and pastor, and he’s also the director of Restoration Resources here at the Roy’s report. So, Lance, welcome and thanks so much for taking the time to discuss this with me.

Lance: Good to be here with you, Julie, and, and discuss these vital matters that the church continually has before her.

Julie: So, Lance, this has been a pretty wild couple of weeks. I mean, here we have this restoration Sunday, and then we find out Tony Evans has a new book coming out, and then he goes on religion news service with an interview where he really, it becomes more and more vague, not more and more clear, you know, consternation.

Very weird way of referring to this. Then he goes on Chris Bery Live, and it seems like he’s more there to discuss his new book. Like, like this is a, a book tour. He’s doing not. Talking about repentance and restoration and, and what for, I mean, it’s, it’s just been extremely confusing. I think for the public.

Lance: It, it seems like the whole process is always confusing for just about all of us because usually these processes are not formed and they’re not, uh, mitigated. They’re not lived out in a biblical way. They’re always rust, they’re always microwaved, and the whole issue always ends up getting that charismatic figure back on the stage before a camera and with a microphone in hand.

It always seems like that is really what’s being restored rather than broken people being restored.

Julie: Yeah. Well, and when Tony Evans had the restoration Sunday, just, just to mention, we had already published an article because he spoke at a conference this past summer. There was no restoration to public ministry before he spoke at that conference, which makes you wonder.

Like, why, why then, why now? Right before this book tour, the, the timing itself is a little bit weird, but let me, let me just go through some of the, what he said. Uh, again, when he stepped down, it was supposedly for undisclosed sin, but we never found out what that sin was. Then on RNS, this is what he said to a reporter, and I quote, there was a decision made as I moved into a new relationship.

My wife passed away in 2019 and I remarried four years later, and there was such consternation around that and people who were not as excited about it, and we were already in transition with my son, so we just said, this would be the best time to go ahead and make that transition so that all the consternation around it wouldn’t interfere with that process.

There was some underlying things, but that was the decision that was made as we moved forward. Then the reporter asked if it was his decision or the churches, he said a combination. It was a shared one. Then when asked, you know, this was called sin. Now you’re calling it consternation. He says, quote, there was just some personal matters that were not free to go into, but some personal matters that precipitated that decision.

And when he was asked if he could say more, then he said the church wanted to just keep it within the bounds of the church. That’s why we’re honoring that. So it almost sounds there, like he’s just being honoring to what the church wanted, that the church didn’t want any specificity around this so-called sin.

And then on Chris Fare Live, and I just wanna play this clip so people can hear it. I mean, this is, again, it was supposedly undisclosed sin and then, uh, and then a restoration and repentance. But this is how he described it on, um, again, Chris F Live.

Chris Fabry: One other part of the season is you kind of stepped back from ministry for for a while.

Yes. Was that a difficult transition for you to go through it?

Dr. Tony Evans: It’s bittersweet, it’s sweet because we were already planning for my son, Jonathan, to, to move into the role. So, uh, so having seen that happen and the marvelous job he is doing, uh, is very sweet. It was bitter because there was some negative circumstances around it. Uh, but sometimes God, when God knows you’re not gonna do something that He, he is ready for you to do, he will allow things to happen to move you quicker than you would’ve moved on your own.

And that’s exactly what happened. Uh, but we are adjusting well and God has got us doing some exciting projects for the kingdom. And so I’m growing to appreciate his sovereignty at a new level.

Lance: What do you make of that? Lance? What was interesting was when he said, you know, God always wants to move faster than we do.

I don’t think so. I think especially in these situations, the, the, the, the person, the individual is wanting to move past this as quick as they can. So once again, it’s rushing through things. But, you know, Tony Evans had a lot of moving parts at this point. So he had this new marriage. He’s, you know, 48, 49 years into pastoring this church.

He’s got his son up and coming. He wants to replace his, you know, bring his son into that, into that position. And so with this now this public knowledge that there has been some unknown sin, that’s a lot of issues that you’re juggling. Let’s just get through this as quick as we can and as clean as we can and as sharp as we can so that we can all get replatformed as quick as we can.

I think that’s what’s going on here.

Julie: Well, and it seems to me that language matters with this. So again, they called it sin at first. Never specified sin. And I’ll be honest, when I was a li when I was five years old, I knew better than this. Like, if I was gonna apologize for something I couldn’t say to my parents, I apologized for an unspecified sin that I did against you.

Um, it would be, I apologized ’cause I took the cookie outta the cookie jar and I knew I wasn’t supposed to do that. And I’m sorry for doing that. And it won’t happen again. Will you forgive me? Like I knew that much at five years old and now we’re seeing a pastor get up. Okay, first sin then. I mean, there’s no clarity around that.

And I will say, I’ve had a number of people reach out to me with allegations about what that sin is. Um, and if it is what, what’s being purported? It’s a very serious sin. And we know that it is serious because it caused him to step down for over a year. Um, but now it’s literally personal matters and when he is talked about it on Chris Vry life, he’s laughing at the same time.

Mm-hmm. Like this is a laughing matter. He and Chris are just kind of having a nice little chat there, you know, by the backyard fence. I mean, it’s, it’s shocking to me actually.

Lance: Yeah. It really is. And it’s word sin. And this is one that we can’t back off of. As you said, that the language does matter. Um, that’s, it’s not just a churchy word, it’s it’s covenant language.

It acknowledges that there’s been a rupture. Not just with people, but with God. And so when we send Sin Man’s confession, um, sin Man’s light and it demands truth. And when a leader says, I’ve sinned it, it calls the community of Christ to attention. And, um, it alerts the flock that something really serious has happened here that requires a real reckoning.

But when that same word is quietly replaced with phrases like personal matters, uh. Then the entire atmosphere really changes and, and the sharpness of repentance is, is very much dulled and the clarity of responsibility gets blurred. And what once demanded and required light, it, it now just starts hiding in the shadows.

It’s, it starts hiding in ambiguity. And so words like personal matters and missteps or unfortunate circumstances, which we hear continually in all of these situations, they may sound polite, but what they are, they’re linguistic smoke screens. Mm-hmm. And they soften sin and they protect image and they rob the church of its ability to name and confront reality.

You know, Jesus says nothing is hidden. It will not be made manifest. And so God doesn’t, he doesn’t work through euphemism, he works through light. And when language gets vague like this, accountability becomes negotiable. And when language gets soft, um, trust it there, it, it enters into this fragility. And when language gets managed, which is what we see in these situations, the truth just gets buried.

And the deeper danger, I believe, Julie, is that when leaders blur the language, the flock gets blinded by the fog and people walk away unsure of what happened. But what they are sure of is they’re supposed to clap anyway, right?

Julie: Yeah, exactly. And so often, and we’ve seen this even with sex abuse cases, and I’m not saying this is one of those.

But where the leader comes back, he gets a standing ovation. This has become almost a norm. It’s becoming cliche, but it’s, it’s horrifying when you think about it. Um, but again, in this, in this case, it just wasn’t said what happened. And now we have a church saying, well, we’re gonna keep these matters within the church.

So we have, uh, a leader like Tony Evans has a national stage. So Moody Radio is urban alternative. I used to work at Moody Radio. Uh, so very aware of the, the reach of Moody Radio, dozens of, of stations in North America, uh, millions of people in in that, that broadcast audience. And now. That’s being handled by a very small group of people.

So how, how does the national, how does the national public, how do the rest of us know this is a man we can trust? Because there’s a few men in his church who are handling it internally.

Lance: It, it wasn’t even, sorry to interrupt you, but it wasn’t even Yeah. Within the church, like you said, it was a small group of men within the church, so it wasn’t to the church.

Julie: Yeah. And the church still doesn’t know the majority of people. And we’ve had a number of people from the church reach out to us even and be like, what’s, what’s going on? Like, they’re, they’re confused. Um, and it seems to me to go against one Timothy five 20, and it’s funny, I was saying this to somebody recently because he asked me, well, how do you justify your ministry?

How do you justify what you do? And I brought up one Timothy five 20, which says, when an elder persists sin, he should be, uh, exposed before all, so that others may stand in fear. This isn’t. Exposure before all really, this, this seems like a whitewash

Lance: before all. It’s a convenient system. And that’s, that’s why these words that are so often used about accountability, there’s really no accountability there, uh, to the body.

And that’s what we’ve lost in the notion of accountability in these leadership systems today is there is this vertical accountability within a small group, but there’s never accountability to the body. Whereas when you really study the New Testament scripture, you see that there was a constellation of accountability to everybody.

Everybody truly was accountable and answerable to one another.

Julie: Well, I’m gonna play a, a clip from that Restoration Sunday and what is surprising to me, similar with Chris Fabry, is the tone at the beginning. So if somebody sends and they’ve been restored. I would kind of think this is a somber kind of event when they come back, but that’s not really what we, what we see here.

Let me play this Clint

OCBF Pastor/Elder – Jonathan Evans: today. I smile. I smile. Not because there is no wilderness and not because there are no test and trials while following God. I smile because through it all, God is faithful. You see, when the people of God were following God, yes, there were places like Rah, places that were bitter, places that were hard, but right after Rah, God gave them the land of evil.

Elam is found in Exodus 1527. It is a place of 12 streams of water and 70 date palms. A place where the people got to camp in the goodness of God. A place where healing flows and where joy is renewed. This is a place where we are going to camp today, church. It’s a place called restoration In the midst.

Of a hard season and a hard time. We’ve experienced the wilderness. But today we are gonna experience Eli a place where God is gonna allow Oakland Bible fellowship to camp, eat, and drink and experience restoration. So I hope you’re ready to smile with me.

Julie: So this was a video that was played before the elders got up on the stage and described this restoration process that, that Tony has been had gone through.

And Jonathan seems to be setting the stage talking about Elam. And, you know, this is a, a place of, of celebration restoration. This is a beautiful thing, which obviously restoration is a beautiful thing, but this seems to me now, again, I’m not the scholar you are. So you can, you can tell me, is this a misapplication of of Elam that we see in the Old Testament?

Lance: It wholly is a misapplication of Elam because Elam was not about restoring, uh, some leader that had sinned. Okay, so this is, this is about their trek through the wilderness and that they were, you know, ready to go through this breakthrough. Even bigger still is before a word about sin or accountability.

The narrative frame is celebration, as you said. Uh, Tony Evans isn’t returning to lead the church as we, as we’ll, we’ll see on later in the service, but he’s reentering the public platform. That’s what’s going on here. And so the sin remains undefined and the restoration narrative becomes this bridge back to influence, um, without any real clear reckoning.

Um, and we’ve seen this movie before, right? Bill High. Yes, we have carefully. He tried it, carefully controlled messaging. Mark Driscoll reframed his persecution, which is a song he wrote and he’s been singing for the last 11 years. Uh. Robert Morris tried it. There was, uh, this look back, this claim to restoration back in the late 1980s, but no real details about it.

Uh, and definitely never dealt with Cindy k Clha, um, his victims. Uh, he claimed he had gone through a two year restoration process in the late 1980s. You never find anything about it, and this is really why, uh, specificity matters in these situations.

Julie: Well, and what he said, what Robert Moore said was that back in the eighties, it was a young woman.

I mean, so there, there was at least specificity that it was sexual sin, but he said it was a young woman, and what a difference a, a few words make, right? A young woman is very different than a 12-year-old girl. And so here we see apparently a restoration process where nobody was told any details, and we find out decades later.

He’s a child molester. He’s a child molester. He’s one of the most powerful pastors in America, is a child molester who now is in prison, thank God. And he should be in prison for a lot more than the time he’s gonna serve, which was like six months and half of it was, uh, was commuted. I mean, it’s just unbelievable to me.

I mean, he should be in there for the rest of his life, as far as I’m concerned. When you sexually molest a girl over four years. A 12 to 16-year-old girl. But again, that’s what happens when sin is buried and we’re given euphemisms and no specificity about what happened, uh, so many years ago. And so in this case, how do we know, how do we know something awful is not being buried?

Now he said it’s not criminal, but I can think of a lot of things that aren’t criminal that would be in the category of disqualifying from any public minister.

Lance: Yeah. There’s no, no question. And this is why I think we, we should start calling it. Uh, and maybe we just need some icon made up with a bell. We, it needs to pop up of every time sin spin, sin, spin.

’cause that’s what’s going on here. And so when someone in leadership falls this vague language, it doesn’t heal wounds. It, it, it, it hides them. You know, David didn’t say, uh, in Psalm 51, he didn’t say, I made mistakes. Mistakes were made. Now he said, I have sinned against the Lord. And so that single line is more personal confession.

It’s a public, uh, or it’s more than personal confession. It’s a public acknowledgement, uh, of a moral reality. It tells the people, this is what I did, and this is who I’ve sinned against. And so specificity creates a clarity, a, a moral clarity, which is really the foundation of real trust. But, but when the language becomes vague, when the specifics are, are tucked away behind words like consternation and personal, uh, matters or restoration process, it, it doesn’t protect the church.

It really diss it. Hmm. And so, you know, without specifics, the flock is left to be, it. It’s, it’s unable to discern sincerity, and so they’re left to, to guess where the true repentance really is happening here. And so elders become gatekeepers of the truth, and they decide what the body of Christ can and can’t handle.

And the gospel credibility suffers because people outside the church see image management, not light. They, they see it real clear. And so, speaking of clarity, let’s be clear of this. Tony Evans has every right to dignity. We’re not, we’re not saying he doesn’t, but biblical leadership is not about managing appearances when public trust, uh, is at stake and then then private language and, and wordsmithing that just won’t cut it.

You know, Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no. No. And so God’s not honored when we carefully curate, uh, this ambiguity. And so he’s only honored when the truth is spoken plainly, even if it costs us

Julie: a hundred percent. And, and you’re right. I mean, if Tony Evans wants to keep this private, he can work through a restoration process privately with his family, with the, you know, whoever was involved, but.

When you’re coming back to public ministry, that’s a, that’s a different standard. And that’s when the public needs, you know, really needs clarity. And, and what was so concerning too, is that when the elders got up, that’s what they promised us. That’s exactly what they said we would get. Take a listen

OCFB Elder – Christopher Wheel: as we present this update.

Our desire is to communicate with integrity, clarity, and humility firmly rooted in the truth of God’s word, in the hope of his redemptive grace, a biblical approach to discipline and restoration. For over 48 years, Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship has followed a biblically grounded process for addressing sin and restoring repentant members and spiritual leaders.

This approach reflects both the seriousness with which we uphold God’s standard and deep hope we place in his redemptive grace.

Julie: I mean, had that preceded a very specific confession of sin, that

Lance: would’ve been beautiful, right? It would’ve been. But it, it lacked transparency and, you know, it, it, which really destroys an opportunity for grace and because transparency here is what they should have been doing, and they claim that they were doing and that they didn’t.

Transparency. That’s what allows the church to really, uh, lament honestly. Mm-hmm. And which lament didn’t even happen in the service. It was far from lament, right? Yeah. Um, the lament. Allows us to discern wisely and, and to restore in the right ways. And so without it, we’re just staging performances. Um, we’re not walking in repentance.

Uh, when leaders confess clearly with biblical language, they are, what they’re doing is they’re inviting the church to come with them in this process, but when they don’t, um, the darkness gets shared by everyone. And that’s what is taking place here.

Julie: Right? So the, the congregation is very uninformed with, with what they’re going through right here.

And the other thing that made that, I mean, because I report these stories so often where there is sin and sin hardly ever hurts. Just the person who sins there are usually victims. There’s usually just a lot of harm that’s done to others. And, and we don’t even know in this case what’s going on with that.

Um. And I wanna just, again, move us through this statement that they gave before the church so that you can comment on it so that we can see a contrast between what’s biblical and again, what, what is taking place now

OCFB Elder – Christopher Wheel: in keeping with this biblical framework, the elder board exercise deliberate and prayerful discretion regarding the timing, the manner of disclosing specific details throughout the restoration process.

This was not done to conceal wrongdoing, but rather to uphold the integrity of the process, to protect the dignity of all involved and prevent unnecessary speculation or sensationalism.

Julie: Okay. This one. How, how did that work

Lance: out? Did it, yeah. Like I’m hearing

Julie: all sorts of speculation. I mean, all it’s done is fuel speculation.

Like if you don’t wanna fuel speculation, you say, well, no, no, no. Wait, let me tell you what happened. And then you, you tell people what happened. If you don’t, that’s all you do. All we have is speculation at this point. Correct.

Lance: Yeah. And you know, the in, in reality, the congregation is just totally uninformed here.

And, you know, some people say, oh, well you’re wanting all the dirty details. No, we don’t wanna hear the dirty details. No one wants that, you know, unless someone’s unhinged. So we’re, we’re, we’re not wanting that. But what you need specificity on what this sim was, um, you, you, you have to name it to, to properly confess it.

So, um, they, they’ve left the congregation uninformed, they’ve left the public. And people say, well, whose business does it? Look here, here’s the thing that we need to point out here too. When you have a large platform, a large public platform, and you voluntarily step into that to take advantage. Of the opportunities of that platform and the megaphone that that platform, um, offers.

This is what James says. Those who teach, they have a greater responsibility and they are held to a higher standard because of that larger platform. That’s the way it is. So when you step out on that platform, you really have an obligation to disclose more than, you know, just the normal, uh, Joe or Jolene would have to expose because of the, the place that you voluntarily stepped into.

And so that’s what we have here, and we see this over and over in these situations. Um, but it leaves everybody just the opposite of what those elders just said that they were, they were intending to do by holding it in wraps.

Julie: Well, and there’s also this idea of, again, finality. Like, almost like this is done now we’re moving on and let’s put this behind us.

Uh, let me play the next clip where they, they talk about it really as he’s been fully restored. It’s all done.

OCFB Elder – Christopher Wheel: We are pleased to report that Dr. Evans has fully submitted to the church’s discipline and restoration process.

Julie: It, it’s hard for me to hear that. It’s hard for me to hear clapping in the midst of this, especially as what has happened is what I think has happened. Um, hearing, clapping, and celebration and, and understand me. I am not against Dr. Tony Evans. I, I actually met Dr. Tony Evans, spent a little bit of time with him back when I was at Moody.

I loved his preaching. Absolutely loved his preaching. He’s, he’s a very dynamic preacher. Nobody could argue that he’s, he’s phenomenal, but. I’m just terribly disappointed because honestly, this, this undermines everything that he’s done. If he has sinned, grievously, I can respect and I can forgive. I may not think he should go back to a public platform, but I would respect him for that.

And this is just so disappointing because it, it’s just not respect worthy. And if you’ve been caught in a serious sin and say the sin happened quite a while ago, so you’ve been living perhaps with it for quite a while, um, and you haven’t disclosed it. I mean, I, it’s, it’s just you, you don’t all of a sudden go through some sort of process with your elders, which by the way, seems like he was writing a book during this whole process.

Uh, which time away, like how much soul searching are you doing while you’re writing a book? I mean, again. It’s just terribly disappointing to me because I had high regard for Tony Evans.

Lance: Along with that is just the tone of this service and, and we’ll, we’ll see it here in just a second. I think the first, next clip, in fact, it kind of level takes another jump and level the tone of this service.

And I think you mentioned it earlier, it, it should be more of a solemn, um, brokenness. Um, because look, here’s the thing, sin, whatever it was, and like you said, we’ve had. Information that seems very credible as to the tone of it. Whatever sin there is, it’s always communal. There, there is no sin that does not reach others.

You know, people talk about victimless crime, victimless crimes, whether there are no victimless crimes. And so sin is an issue of community and that’s why the scriptures call us to bring it to community. Confess your sins one to another. Um, so, uh, the restoration cannot take place without that. But once again, the tone, this is almost like a, a coronation or re coronation, um, rather than any solemn brokenness that, that, you know, someone has sinned, someone, uh, with large responsibility has sinned and someone has been sinned against, uh, God has been sinned against especially, but you just don’t.

There, there’s been no tone of that sin against God here at all.

Julie: No, and, and people, and we, we made reference to it already, David, when he sinned, and, and people often use that as, okay, David’s sinned and God restored him. And what I think they forget often is that David’s sin with Bathsheba, she had a child, and that child died as judgment.

I mean, that is a pretty strong statement by God about how seriously he takes this sin. And David was not a pastor. In fact, he was not allowed to build the temple because he was a man of war. So there, there’s, there’s some things, and it’s the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. We now have qualifications for a pastor being above reproach.

Above reproach. That’s a pretty high standard. So. Again, there’s this idea that he’s gone and he’s moved on beyond it. And what I see with David is there was fasting, there was lament, right? I mean, after he, he hoped that God might relent in his, in his judgment and his punishment, and he grieved. And then when his child died, he grieved.

He grieved and he grieved his sin. And it’s such, when you talk a different tone, unbelievable the difference in tone. There was no celebration when David came back. Let’s celebrate my, my son is dead and my sin is, I mean, our sin put Jesus on the cross. It’s serious when we sin and we grieve God with, you know, grievous kind of sins.

It, it’s not a celebration, it just isn’t.

Lance: No. And, and, and once again, that seems like that’s the goal to get back. On the platform to get back on the road, to get back in the tour bus, to, to get, to get the machine pumping and cranking again. And, and, you know, we’ve gotta get to the point where, when these situations happen, that the calendars laid down and the clock is set aside and it’s like, let’s take the time to be before the Lord in obscurity.

And charismatic leaders with large platforms cannot stand obscurity. That lasts very long at all. And there’s a lot of reasons behind that. Uh, but, you know, 12 months, that’s enough time to write a book, but it’s, it’s not a lot of time.

Julie: Well, as we heard, uh, him tell Chris Vry, he called it bittersweet. Which I’ve never heard sin and repentance referred to as bittersweet, um, or the time in dealing with that sin.

It’s bittersweet. But he said one of the things that was sweet was that he got to see, you know, his son took over as pastor and now we’ll be the lead pastor at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship. Um, he is installed, and even that in and of itself seems a a little bit concerning because, and we’ve seen this with different churches where, uh, the ministry or pastor, it doesn’t seem like it’s something that is earned through godliness necessarily, but it’s churches are treated like family businesses that can be passed down to the next generation.

I don’t know anything much about Jonathan. He’s certainly well-spoken and may be an extremely godly man and deserves that post. But there’s a certain element of this where Tony says, you know, I was hoping he would take this over. And I, where we’ve just seen this, we’ve seen this movie too many times where it just appears like, like nepotism.

Lance: Well, nepotism is huge in the church. And I mean, I’m, as you’re talking, I’m just sitting here thinking about the, the, the, the different churches that this has happened at. There’s so many that it happens at. So it, it very much does become a, you know, a, a family business. And, and, you know, I, I’m, I mean, I’m sure Jonathan is a good communicator.

Um, and so it’s not for me or it’s, we’re, we’re not here to judge that, uh, you know, God’s calling his life. But it does make you wonder how much choice these elders really had in who Tony Evans’ successor was gonna be. That was probably set in stone a long time ago.

Julie: Yeah. Well, let me play this last clip because again, this is too often how these kind of, I’d say, performances before the church, this stagecraft, how the church responds and, and church, I’m sure there’s a lot of Godly people in there, but friends, wake up.

Wake up. Do not give a standing ovation for a pastor who sins okay, just, just don’t. But this is what happened.

OCFB Elder – Christopher Wheel: In alignment with biblical principles and unanimous affirmation of the elder board, Dr. Evans has successfully completed this restoration journey.

Julie: Well, that, that’s just hard to hear. I mean, honestly, it is, and I, I get it that the congregation loves Tony and he’s done an awful lot to deserve that love over decades. I, I get that. Absolutely. You know, and, and there is some honor that is due him, but this is not the time or the

Lance: place. Well, that’s what I was thinking.

I mean, Ecclesiastes tells, you know, there’s a time for joy, there’s a time for laughter, there’s a time for weeping, there’s a time for mourning. And this felt like a college graduation ceremony. Uh, you know, it’s like, okay, let’s flip the tassel and give me my diploma, um, restoration From the very outset of this whole service, it was framed as an event.

Uh, not a journey. It was, it was a service. It was a moment, it was a public celebration. But look, folks, biblical se uh, restoration isn’t a one-time event. It’s not some ribbon cutting ceremony. It’s, it’s not to be these carefully staged moments that yield applause. It’s a long, slow, sanctifying process of brokenness.

And in true restoration, it’s not about crossing the finish line, it’s about learning to walk different from that point forward. Um, you know, so in scripture, restoration is tied to repentance, to turning from, and there’s fruit. And fruit takes time. Peter didn’t return to ministry the night he denied Jesus.

Uh, David didn’t write Psalm 51 and immediately stepped back onto the throne as if nothing had happened. And so, even, even. Paul warns against laying hands on a leader too quickly. So, you know, biblical restoration is not some rehab plan with a completion certificate. It’s ongoing sanctification. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit that that shapes us over time.

And that’s, you know, that’s why the way we talk about restoration matters so much. And so when a church declares that a leader is restored. After a set program or a service or a time length, it signals to, to, to everyone. That restoration is, you know, it’s a box to check, it’s, it’s a finish line to, to cross.

And, but, but real restoration. It’s proven in the shadows, not in the spotlight, you know, um, Paul said that if anyone is caught in transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch for yourself, lest you two be tempted. But notice it says restore him, not re-platform him.

That’s a process. It’s not some production to get through. So the church has to, to rediscover this. That restoration is measured in, in fruit, not timeliness. It’s measured in humility, you know, not through announcements. And it’s as, as Eugene Peterson said, it’s, it’s this long obedience, it’s not some staged applause.

Because if ReSTOR, if, if restoration gets treated like it’s an event, we don’t actually restore people, we just recycle them back into the spotlight. And that’s not what the church needs today. And it’s certainly not what the world needs today from us.

Julie: It also starts me that this speaks to, uh, the broader system that we’ve been discussing in so many of these podcasts.

I go to a house church, we’re a family. We’re in each other’s lives. I cannot fathom that one of us, if we sin really grievously. Not being open with the rest of the body about what happened. And it wouldn’t be just a few people who are dealing with it. It would be that we’re dealing with this together as a body.

And that’s where I feel like the congregation is just like, like there’s superfluous to the whole process. They’re not informed on what happened. They don’t, it’s like you don’t need to know, you know? It’s a need to know basis. And it’s like they just don’t matter. And, and, and we’ve become so used to this that we clap about it.

We’ve become so used to the celebrity pastor being back there and we want ’em to become back so badly. We wanna hear, oh, these men we trusted, they say it’s all cool. So we trust them Friends. How many time have the men that we trusted, betrayed that trust? It’s happened over and over again. They have to give details.

That’s why scripture says you have to publicly expose them. It there has to be truth. There cannot be like repentance, truth is required. I mean, can you imagine coming before the Lord and saying mistakes were made and, uh, yeah, we’re good now. I mean, it’s, I, I just, I, I can’t, it’s so shocking to me that this is happening.

It’s shocking to me, but I, it shouldn’t be shocking to me that that Moody Radio had him on. Because I remember when I reported about misdeeds happening at the Moody Bible Institute, and the next day, within 24 hours, the president, the CEO, the COO and the provost either resigned or retired, all three of them within 24 hours, but they didn’t do anything wrong.

I remember the formal statements were, it was just, we just decided we needed a new season of leadership, a new season of leadership that is not biblical, and the Moody Bible Institute, we used to always say, Bible is our middle name. The Moody Bible Institute playing a role in this farce is deeply offensive to me because I believed in the Moody Bible Institute at one point.

I believed in the integrity of that institution. And to see this happening again and then participating in it makes me angry. It makes me angry for the honor of God. Like this is how, like God’s okay with this. This is a joke. It is a joke, and it’s time that we start calling it a joke. And moody, shame on you.

Shame on you for putting your rubber stamp of approval on a man that you don’t even know probably what his sin wants. Or maybe you do, and if you do and you’re okay with this and you don’t think it needs specificity, and you don’t think he needs to actually repent, shame on you Moody. I mean, really you’re participating and those of you who are listening and supporting Moody at the next share event.

Tell them why you’re not giving your gift. Tell them we’re not giving our, your, our gift because you just platformed a man that clearly was disqualified for some sin, but when he came back, there was no real repentance. ’cause you cannot repent without saying what you’re repenting of. I, I’m getting a little bit on my high horse that this is, this is offensive to me.

This is not the gospel at all.

Lance: No, it’s not. Julie. And, and, and this is why it’s so important for us to get it right when the church gets this wrong. We are protecting reputations. But when it gets it right, we’re protecting the name of Jesus and we’re protecting the flock. Yeah. We’re, we’re guarding his bride, right?

Mm-hmm. We, we dignify the ones that have been wounded rather than dignify, the one that did the wounding. So we’re rebuilding what sin tried to tear down, and that’s what scripture requires. Not applause, not optics, truth, repentance, restoration in the light. I just wanna share a verse from two Corinthians seven 11.

Um, what Paul says, he says, see what this godly grief has produced in you. Remember, he had dealt with a serious, in fact, it was a sexual immorality issue that they were just tolerating. In his earlier letter, they obviously dealt with it because here’s what Paul says about the process. See what this godly grief has produced in you.

What earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves. What indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of yourselves that you didn’t make yourselves and you found yourselves innocent in this matter at the end. ’cause they did the process, right? Godly grief produces change that really can be measured, and it’s not measured by image management.

So it, it, it can be a beautiful thing, uh, be a beautiful thing for everybody involved. And then in fact, you know, Paul had called to seek the restoration of this individual that was involved in this heavy sin. He didn’t say re-platform the guy. He did say bring restoration back to his status as a son and a servant of Jesus.

But that doesn’t equal, you get your platform back in every one of these cases, but you certainly don’t if you can’t even call it out and name it for what it is.

Julie: The thing is Tony Evans is in his late seventies, and I just, I mean, I just turned 60 this past summer and I think about the last chapter of my life.

And I love what I do. I love the ministry that is involved here at the Royers report. I also love my family and spending time with them, and as I get more and more grandkids, I see that takes more and more time. I wanna do that really well too. I, I just, I don’t understand this, this desire to, we just gotta come back.

We gotta write the book. We gotta do, I mean, I don’t know, it just seems a little outta place in the midst of this and I. You know, and, and I think of John MacArthur, you know, here he was in his eighties and some serious allegations against him and nope, just keep plowing through, you know, in his eighties till, till he dies.

Um, rather than dealing with the sins of the past, you know? Uh, I, it’s just, it’s grievous to me and, and the church goes along with it. Why? Because we like our celebrity pastors, the publishers are making money on it. The radio stations are platforming them, they’re getting an audience through it. I mean, it’s all part of this evangelical celebrity machine or industrial complex, and it’s just like the show must go on.

And it’s just, and I think the people that are involved in it, it’s sad to me because so often I think they’re not being whole persons. You know, they’re, they’re just, they crave that limelight and it just, it’s sad to me. It really is.

Lance: Yeah, it is. And it doesn’t have to be that way. And, and even, even if a leader has, uh, fallen in sin, it actually could be, uh, the great thing about the cross is it brings redemption.

Every one of us has stories of redemption in our lives. And this is what Paul says, you know, where sin has abounded grace will much more abound. And so to finish well is to finish well in that grace. And, but that gr that grace, um, if, if you’re worshiping the platform or if your whole life and your whole identity is built around the platform or what it, what your quote ministry is, rather than just being, hey, a son and a daughter of God, that it doesn’t get any better than that.

But, but the most important thing is for us just to have this solace and this just, just this great soft place on the porch just sitting with our father. That’s, nothing beats that. But it seems like that, especially these charismatic leaders that have these big platforms, they can’t live without that spotlight for some reason and just let it go at that.

Julie: Well, are there some takeaways, um, I mean we’ve, we’ve shown some things of how the church shouldn’t do it, but are there some takeaways for how can we do this right when there is sin? How should we be handling these sorts of situations? ’cause I know. We have a lot of negatives, examples, but do we have some positive examples for how to do this?

Lance: I wanna just, just real quick, just gonna just run down through this list and, and we’ll actually, we’ll, we’ll even throw these up on the screen for you. Um, but there’s just, there’s just about four or five just really quick points that I think that we should make in these process, these lessons for the church.

First of all, truth and grace are not opposites. That’s one of the most important things. Truth and grace are not enemies, they’re partners. And grace. When it doesn’t have truth, then we just entered into sentimentality. Um, truth without grace is brutality and, but when the two walk together, they create this path for real redemption.

Forget image repair. Jesus never s separated them. And, and neither should the church. The second thing, uh, restoration has to be witnessed not managed. Biblical restoration is something the church sees. It’s not something a few elders privately control. Look, when restoration is witnessed by the community, it builds trust, beautiful trust in bonds.

And, but when it’s managed behind the closed doors, it, it breeds and feeds suspicion. So transparency invites the body to discern to not just applaud. Third thing, real quick, succession requires fresh discernment. So when we pass the baton in moments of crisis, it’s not, uh, uh, uh. Family matter. I’m talking about natural families.

It’s a spiritual matter. It’s a spiritual matter among the family of God. Now just pause on this thought ’cause we’re not gonna get into this here, but this actually feeds the problem of the one man rule anyway. We always think we have to have this one hero leader. We gotta pass the baton to this individual.

You just don’t find that in the New Testament, what whatsoever? And we’ll do a lot more teaching on that. But succession has to flow from prayerful discernment, not not preserving somebody’s legacy. And so if we want a fresh work of God, it often requires fresh voices, not just the familiar names. Fourth thing I wanna point out is that public and ministry requires public reckoning.

Now, we’ve talked about this. If a leader’s platform was public, then repentance and accountability has to match the level of that. These, these private, uh, explanations for public influence, they always erode trust. And so reckoning. Look, it’s not about shaming the leader in, that’s not what we’re trying to do here.

It’s about telling the truth wherever that influence has been exercised. And then finally, we have to model restoration after Jesus. Not, not celebrity rehab, you know, so celebrity culture always wants quick comebacks. And, and what Jesus is looking for is for, for transformed hearts. And so the church has to some point stop copying the PR playbook of fallen platforms, and we have to return to that slow, beautiful spirit-led work.

You know, that brings us to repentance and accountability and fruit bearing. So it’s, it’s not about recovering the spotlight, it’s about renewing the soul.

Julie: And do you have any words for the congregation right now at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship? I mean, what, what should they be doing in the midst of this as maybe they’re sensing in their spirit, something’s not right.

Um, what, what do they do?

Lance: Well, I think my first thought has been that, that, you know, Tony Evans on stage. He models humility. Uh, up to the point of naming the sin, the elders on stage, they seem sincere. Mm-hmm. And I, and I have no doubt that they love the church. Mm-hmm. But merging repentance with stagecraft, it, it just undermines that.

And so that stagecraft is what? Probably through even a lot of this, the, the, the people that were, you know, in those pews on that Sunday and loved Tony Evans and loved that church and probably have been there for decades themselves. But we can’t forget folks that we are called by, uh, to walk in the light as he is in the light.

And so anytime restoration, I, it has no light. It’s still in the shadows. And so even great teachers can miss the full pattern of repentance. We’ve seen it. David’s story once again reminds us that vertical repentance has to lead to some horizontal repair. And so this is where we have to enter in under and embrace that truth is mercy.

And so when a leader falls, the story doesn’t have to end in cynicism. We don’t want it to end in cynicism. It can be a story of redemption, but only if truth leads the way. So I would say to the church, I would say demand the truth. Demand the truth. Mur, you know, Psalm 85, 10, David said, mercy and truth have met together.

Righteousness and peace have kissed. And so to get to that place of peace, we have to have truth that comes along with the mercy and we have the right to demand it.

Julie: And yet, my guess is if it’s demanded, they’ll say it’s been settled, the elders that dealt with it. And basically either you submit to our leadership and show that you trust us by staying here and stopping asking questions, or you can find another church.

I, I, I hope that’s not the case. And I would say right now, if the Elders of Oak Cliff are listening, um, which I, I would hope they are guys, be humble and go back and correct this wrong. And stand up. And I, I’ve gotta think there’s some elders that are not okay with this. ’cause these are godly men. They know scripture.

I mean, again, I’m probably not half the biblical scholar that Tony Evans is, or the people around him, you know? But I know enough, I know enough to know what’s right and what’s wrong, and that was just wrong. You know, I, I know that much. And the people of your church know that much. And if you keep going, I’ll just tell you, this is gonna be a rot that will, will never quite, you’ll never quite get over because there’s so many questions right now.

There’s so many. This isn’t right. And I’m telling you, I’m getting the emails, so don’t I, I know it’s happening and I’m getting ’em for people within the church. And the thing is, and and I say this all the time, people come to me as a last resort. They usually have tried everything else. And I’m just gonna appeal to you elders.

If people come to you and they say what you did, it wasn’t right. You know, it’s not right and you better handle it. Right. Be humble enough to admit that and reverse course. And I would say that to Tony Evans too. And I get, you know, I’m a nobody to Tony Evans probably, but I’ll just say, Tony, you know, as your sister in Christ, this isn’t right.

This isn’t right. And you’ve done too much good and too much great ministry to end like this. You really have, I can deal with you ending with I did something really bad and I’m ashamed of it, and, you know, God’s forgiven me. But it may be, you know, I don’t have a public stage anymore. I, I can deal with that.

I respect that and I think it’s the godly way to do it, but this, no, it’s just not. Yeah.

Lance: And I, and I think that kind of my last thoughts on it, on it all is that we. Truly love and should pray for Tony Evans and for Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship because like you said, I mean the legacy has been wonderful. Um, I’m a, I’m a Texas kid.

It’s been a long time since I lived there. I actually, in the very early years, uh, met my wife at bible college right there in the shadows of Tony Evans ministry. And so I always had heard of Tony Evans and, and, and respected and, and was grateful for the, the beautiful deep work that they’ve done. So I would encourage us to pray for Tony and to pray for Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship for every congregation that has been wounded by image management and, and for ourselves that we would love light more than image.

Um, and that we would love repentance more than reputation and that we would love integrity more than applause because, but truth is not the enemy of grace. Truth is how grace gets in and that’s what we all want. Mm-hmm. Amen.

Julie: And I would add one more, is the potential victims that may be involved because as we said, sin harms and yeah, I don’t know, but, uh, I just suspect that there may be some, some real harm or some real hurt that’s involved there.

Lance, thank you once again for bringing truth to the fore and, and for dealing with this situation. I can tell you, you have one more thing you wanna say. So, um. Lemme throw it back to you. Well,

Lance: that’s funny. You’ve learned to read me, you’ve learned to read Me Too Well, so know what I was thinking. I know the, I know the book.

I was thinking you can see it.

Lance: No, I was just thinking when you said that, I was thinking, you know, the whole Dallas area. And of course, um, there’ll probably, there’ll probably be a, a trailer for it here in a minute, but we’re gonna be in Dallas in April for Restore 2026. And I just, and I’m not sure if you saw this, but I saw something the other day.

Uh. I forget who published this stat, but they said that there were, at least with all the falls of the pastors just last year in the Dallas Fort Worth area, speaking of people that get hurt, not only the individuals that were directly affected because of whatever that fall was, but just the people in those churches and those con, those congregations that they had summarized.

There’s over 50,000 people represented in those churches by the pastors that fell just last year in the DFW area. So yes, sin is not contained to the individual. It affects the community, it affects the body. Just last night, I accidentally stuck my little pinky in a fan and it nipped it, and guess what?

My entire body was screaming and was not happy. With what had happened to the little pinky. That’s what happens with the body when any part of it hurts. Paul said the whole body hurts.

Julie: Hmm. And restore has been, uh, it’s a God thing. It is a God thing. Um, we just provide a place and the Holy Spirit shows up and ministers to wounded people.

And I cannot think of an area, as you said, more impacted by, by disillusionment and falls, uh, and church hurt. It’s, it’s been devastating. And so friends, if you live in the Dallas Fort Worth area, or even if you have to travel that, um, we have people coming from Australia and UK and mm-hmm. Canada, I mean all over.

But especially in this area, I do think there is just a woundedness that the Lord. The Lord comes to those who have been wounded. He cares for the vulnerable. Mm-hmm. That is his heart. And so I do think it’s going to be a sweet, sweet time. It always is. And so I really, really encourage you, um, to make it, to restore.

And even if you don’t have money to get to restore, we have people who have stepped up and give, uh, scholarships. And we, uh, you know, our prayer is that we don’t have to turn anybody away for financial needs. So we wanna make it happen. So if, if you can come, please come to restore, sign up now. It’s an, it’s not gonna be till April, but it is just going to be, oh, an amazing conference.

Not because we’re so great, but because our God is so great. And his heart absolutely is so large and so tender towards those who have been wounded. So friends, I just. I, I encourage you to come. It’s just, it’s just beautiful.

Lance: It sure is. And once again, Dallas Fort Worth. It’s not a bad place to be in April either.

Julie: That too, that

Lance: too.

Julie: Well, and thank you so much for listening to the Roy’s report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy, and just a quick reminder that the Roy’s report is listener supported. So if you appreciate these podcasts and want them to continue, would you please consider donating to the Roys report?

To give, just go to julie roys.com/donate. That’s julie roys.com/donate. Also, please subscribe to the Roys report on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content.

Again, thanks so much for listening. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.

Restore – Jenny Bayless / Dr. Diane Langberg: We need to be talking about spiritual abuse and religious trauma. This is a place where it’s safe for those who have been hurt in churches. It is also a place for people to learn more about how to respond to those situations, and it is much needed

Restore – Tammy Woods: walking into the room, even taking the platform today felt so safe.

I, there was no nerves, there was no anything. I just, there is an atmosphere of. Support and comradery and love that’s here.

Lance: I think that it’s really become a kind of a refuge. It’s become a green pasture for people to come find one another. And, and so many times there’s a solace, there is a restoration just in finding someone else that’s

Restore – Pastor Ray Curry, Jr. : experienced what you’ve experienced to know that there are people from all over the country, all over the world who, uh, have experienced these same things and, and, uh, they’re uniting in Christ for healing.

And I just think it’s a beautiful experience.

Restore – Mary DeMuth: It’s not that we don’t love the church, it’s actually that we do love the church very, very much. And that’s why we’re having these kinds of conversations. It makes me feel less alone when I can talk with someone who’s had a shared experience like that.

Restore – Caleb Campbell: It was so cool to see, you know, the room is packed and, uh, folks are eager to engage.

Uh, they’re encouraged, but they’re also encouraging one another. And I believe that this is. So good because the need is so great.

Laura-Lynn Tyler Thompson: This conference is not only for those who’ve been victimized and hurt, but it is for people who want to be the answer now to what sadly, the church in the last 30 to 40 years has covered up and those who want to be.

The on the cutting edge of how God is moving to vindicate to show his justice,

Restore – Deborah Perkins: to bring his healings. I just so believe in the power of story and we need to unite. And so I just would welcome any survivor to come and know that you’ll be loved. You’ll be heard, you’ll be seen, and this is just a safe place for all of us.

Julie: Celebrate what God is doing. We celebrate that the, those that have been hurt and wounded by the church, that there’s a place that they can come that’s safe and they can find healing, and they can find community and they can be ministered to. We celebrate that. It is so amazing and at the same time we grieve that, right?

I mean, how sad is it that we need to have a conference for people who have been wounded by the very place, the very institution that should be ministering, healing to them.

source: https://julieroys.com/podcast/tony-evans-return-restoration-or-stagecraft-and-pr/