asking employee to have their eyes checked, frustrated with daughter’s new job, and more

This post was written by Alison Green and published on Ask a Manager.

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. I’m frustrated with my daughter’s new job

Our daughter is struggling. Her job has asked her not to come in for the rest of the month as they are “giving her time to work on herself.” She is a new employee of a brand new ice cream shop that hired 25 people to work as shift leads, managers, and worker bees. This is her first job at the age of 19. She is also a student in culinary school.

Because she is over 18, she almost exclusively works the evening close shift and seems to be scheduled for every Saturday and one other day during the week. Often the manager when she works is the same person who we are reasonably sure is related to the owners somehow.

She left early on one shift due to the smell of something they were making that made her extremely nauseous. She left right at close another time when her manager told her it was okay for her to leave since she was struggling with sore muscles and an injured wrist after wakeboarding earlier in the day. She left early in her last shift due to inexplicable loss of bladder control while washing dishes (which was mortifying and certainly not planned). On another day, she had failed to take her anxiety meds and let the owner know she was struggling to cope appropriately with stress on that occasion, but has since not had any issues with that.

She has been honest with them about her anxiety and ADHD. The employees were apparently told by the owner the first week of training to be open and honest and they would work to accommodate needs. But apparently she has had too many needs? She discovered that the two four-hour shifts she was given for this week were removed. No one spoke to her about it. She was notified in a email, but was still scheduled for two shifts next week.

She texted the owner to ask if that was done because of her most recent issue with her bladder and the owner texted her and said they don’t feel she is a team player and can be relied on. And every communication is via text, not on the phone voice to voice. Super frustrating since we all know that typed messages are often misinterpreted. She has been in tears.

I am not inclined to get involved but my mom heart hurts to watch her trying so hard to conform to what they want and getting her already fragile self-esteem thrown in the trash. I know she is not the only employee with issues and concerns. Why does it feel like she is being singled out for not being an easy employee?

This is food service; if you’re not reliably there or have to leave early a lot, it can mean they just take you off the schedule — or at least schedule you less. It sounds like she left early from four shifts at a brand new job, so it’s not surprising that they’re prioritizing scheduling other people.

I know you’re thinking these were all legitimate reasons to go home, but on their side of it, what they see is a pattern of not reliably working full shifts. Four times in a short period is a lot, regardless of the reason. That doesn’t mean she’s a bad person or not capable of having a job; it just means that this particular job doesn’t think they can rely on her right now.

I get that it sucks that the owner encouraged people to be open about their needs and then she was penalized for it. But it’s could be a good opportunity to talk about what that really means in a work context and how to navigate it, and what will and won’t be considered reasonable or excessive (because in very few jobs will it mean endless patience for whatever you need; it’s a balancing act that takes a while to understand when you’re new to work).

(The texting is also very normal and a thing she should expect in food service jobs; it’s faster than calling because they don’t need to wait until they can reach someone on the phone.)

2. Is this 18-month process typical to fire someone who doesn’t do their work?

I’m a director of a small group of people in a very large professional organization. My team is all remote workers, which generally works out well. I’m not a micromanager by nature, and given our remote status, I can only ascertain someone’s work by their output.

I have one employee who I know has been suffering from mental health issues. This has manifested in, as near as I can see on my end, them “checking out” and doing zero work for days at a time. Work orders would go untouched, and I would receive complaints from other leaders when their tickets had no action. People began to dread when their tickets were assigned to this person because it typically meant a slow process. I began with talking to them in our biweekly meetings and when things didn’t improve, I had to move to HR and PIPs.

I’m sympathetic to their mental health issues and offered solutions such as FMLA, PTO, and our employee health services. PTO was used here and there for some scheduled vacations but also largely on days when we had a scheduled team meeting, I think as a way to avoid me/the team. Things didn’t improve and, while I kept HR looped in every step of the way, their solution was to keep issuing PIPs, just PIP level 1, PIP level 2, PIP level 3, etc. It was ridiculous, in my opinion, and drug out for over 18 months because the employee would improve for a couple of months after receiving a PIP, and then backslide again. After PIP level 3 should have been termination. When I got to that point, I had a meeting with HR and expressed my continued concerns and thought they would support me in my desire for termination, but our HR rep wanted to know what I had done to coach and guide this person before getting to this point.

I’m kind of incredulous. I work with and hire adults. We have had numerous conversations over the past year, and at the last PIP level 3 meeting, I told the employee that this was the last step before termination. I feel like HR wants me to be a kindergarten teacher and baby everyone. I can coach someone on how to do their job better, or how to better communicate, or how to better handle a process — but coaching someone on actually coming to work every single day seems wildly out of line. Is this normal for large organizations, where it takes an act of congress to terminate someone who is quite obviously not working out?

No, it’s not normal, but you do see it in incompetently run organizations. It’s possible they’re being extra cautious with this person because of the health issues, but even accounting for that, this is a ridiculous process. PIPs don’t need three levels, and they don’t need 18 months (!). They should be a few months at most (often less, depending on the nature of the issues and the nature of the work), and they should include a clear statement that improvement must be sustained; if the problems recur, you don’t repeat the whole process.

In organizations that move as slowly as yours (or even half as slowly), it can help to ask HR at the very start of the process to lay out the process in its entirety — what will be required of you when, and what the timeline will look like. Sometimes if you know what they’ll want to see later in the process, you can work on documenting that you’ve done it early on, and that can save time and aggravation later. It’s also possible that your HR person’s inquiry into what you’ve done to coach the person up until this point doesn’t actually mean, “We’re ignoring everything that came before today and we want you to start from scratch”; it might just be a thing they’re required to document at this stage, and it’s easier to ask you than to go back through all the previous records. You should say directly, “My understanding was that having gone through 18 months of performance management and three levels of PIPs, we would terminate if improvement was not demonstrated. If that’s not the case, what exactly needs to happen between now and when we would be at that point?”

3. Can I ask an employee if they need an eye exam?

I supervise someone who is a few decades older than me. Normally this isn’t a problem for them or me, but it’s making me hesitate to bring something up. Lately they have been submitting things that look blurry or pixelated. This has happened 3-4 times across 3-4 different contexts. It’s always right on the edge, something that I think needs to be crisper and they think can pass or that they didn’t notice. It’s a low stakes issue — I just ask that the photo be swapped — but it’s enough times now that I’m wondering if they need to have their close-up vision checked. However, is that something a supervisor can even bring up? Is it something I would even think about if the person was my age, or would I assume it was just carelessness? For the record, my vision is terrible, so having my eyes checked is always top of mind for me.

Handle it way you would if they were 25, which (hopefully!) means just naming the pattern you’re seeing: “Several times recently, you’ve submitted work that’s looked blurry or pixelated. Can you look into what’s causing that, whether it’s an issue with the tools you’re using to create them or something else?”

If that doesn’t solve it, the next time it happens look at the blurry item together and ask if they can see what you’re talking about. If they can’t, the by-the-book answer is to flag for them that it’s an issue and ask them to look into tools to help them see whatever they’re producing more sharply. Maybe they’ll decide that’s glasses, maybe they’ll decide it’s a magnifier or something else — up to them.

4. Do I have to say who my competing offer is from?

This happened a few years ago, but I realized recently that I still don’t know what the right move would have been. I was interviewing and Job A made an offer. I told Job B this and asked for an update on their decision. In response, Job B asked who Job A was.

I told them. (I ultimately didn’t get an offer from B. They didn’t end up hiring anyone for that role.) I get that it’s not necessarily private or sensitive information, but it felt gauche for them to ask. Was that reaction warranted? Would it have been okay/normal to decline to tell them who the exact other offer was from? If so, what might have been reasonable wording?

I agree it’s a little gauche of them to ask, although some employers do this. They’d defend it by saying that knowing who your offer is from helps them understand if they’re likely to be able to compete with it (and they can save you both time if they know they can’t) or helps them better understand the totality of your situation and you as a candidate. But it’s really none of their business and you don’t need to disclose it if you don’t want to.

It’s fine to say, “I’d rather not share that at this point; I’m just hoping for an update on your timeline.”

Related:
what does it mean when an employer says, “let us know if you get any offers”?

5. Giving lots of advance notice of a layoff

How do you feel about giving advance notice of an impending layoff that is truly only for financial reasons? The setting in question is a small business (very small) and with some other recent income-generating-staff departures, we no longer need or can afford as much administrative support.

The administrative professional in question is amazing and I stand prepared to give a wonderful reference, but I also think she may struggle in the job market because of possibly encountering bias (she is a visible minority, and I think unfortunately may be subject to discrimination). So I want to give her as much lead time as possible to begin seeking new employment.

How long is too long? Can I tell her 3+ months in advance, “In the fall our budget will be tighter and we may not have room for your position,” thus essentially asking her to begin looking for work? Or should I limit it to a shorter time period such as 4-6 weeks? I truly want the best for her and am heartbroken that I am having to make this decision.

It’s true that much of the conventional wisdom around layoffs says to avoid much/any notice (and to instead offer severance in lieu of notice) because otherwise you open yourself up to sabotage from bitter soon-to-be-former employees, or people slacking off and barely working or affecting the morale of other people. But that’s not your situation! This is a small business, you describe the employee as amazing, and it doesn’t sound like you have reason to be worried about any of those things.

So give her as much notice as you can. Also, if you’re sure you will be laying her off in the fall, don’t say you “may not” be able to keep her. Be clear and direct and tell her that you will need to cut her position then so that she’s very clear on what will be happening. Otherwise, she may not move as quickly or aggressively in a job search, thinking that she might be kept on.

Let her know that it’s purely a financial decision and has nothing to do with her work, she’s great, and you’ll give her a glowing reference as she’s searching. Also, if you can use your network to try to help, do! It’s tough to find really great admin support, and you might be able to make someone in your network very happy by connecting them.